CRASH IN LAGRANGE INJURES 9
LaGrange Township – A two car crash Thursday afternoon has injured 9 people – two kids flown to Cleveland.
LaGrange Fire & Rescue responded to Route 303 and Nickel Plate Diagonal Road after a car and a minivan collided in the intersection. Chief James Rader of the LaGrange Fire Department said that they treated and transported 9 victims from the scene. “In the minivan we had a family of 6; Mom and Dad with their four kids and two Cousins – the kids ranged in age from 5 to 16 years old. The driver of the white car was also transported.”
Two of the children from the minivan, one 16 and the other 12, were both transported to LaGrange Community Park where they met a medical team from Metro LifeFlight. Both children were then flown to MetroHealth Medical Center in Cleveland.
Troopers from the Ohio State Highway Patrol are investigating the crash.
PHOTO GALLERY
UPDATE: Troopers say that 19-year-old Jared Reinhart of Elyria was driving a white Ford Focus northbound on Diagonal Road failed to yield at a stop sign at the intersection of Diagonal and Route 303. Ray Rader was traveling eastbound in a Dodge minivan on Route 303 at the time along with his wife, four children and two cousins when the collision occurred.
posted by TMC NEWS at 7:18 PM
45 Comments:
I listened to this call and was completely puzzled. The LaGrange squad received an ETA of 15 minutes for the helicopter and then called that they were going to go sit on the helipad at the community park down the road for the 15 minutes waiting for the helicopter.
Why would they not head towards a hospital? If one of those kids deteriorated, the helicopter crashed, or the helicopter ran into mechanical trouble, I would not want to be the medic or chief that has to explain why they felt sitting for 15 minutes was better than getting to the next higher level of care or rendezvous with the helicopter at the hospital. I don't have a medical background, instead I have a legal background, so I won't say I have all the answers, but it seems like common sense that the squad would just go to hospital instead of waiting around when higher care can be offerred.
I hope if that is my family, that the crews will not sit on a helipad waiting for a helicopter!!
(Why would they not head towards a hospital? If one of those kids deteriorated, the helicopter crashed, or the helicopter ran into mechanical trouble, I would not want to be the medic or chief that has to explain why they felt sitting for 15 minutes was better than getting to the next higher level of care or rendezvous with the helicopter at the hospital.)
... the eta to a doctor is roughly the same in Lagrange (15 minutes for Metro, or 15 minutes by ground to one of the local hospitals - none of which by the way are rated for trauma) With the good weather today, it is unlikely that there would be delays with getting Metro on scene. You mention all kinds of "what ifs" with the helicopter, but you also should consider what if the squad broke down or crashed on the way to the hospital (roughly 11 miles from scene of accident). Also, by flying from scene (or the park) the squad is available and in service that much faster for the next call (vs. a longer eta for a mutual aid squad from a longer distance)
Stop sitting at home and listening to the scanner all day. get a life.
You make a compelling argument. Or why not see if another helicopter transport can get to the scene quicker. Best of wishes and thoughts to the injuried.
Well, If you don't have a medical background, then maybe you shouldn't speculate about a medical call.
When they were "sitting" and waiting for the helicopter, they were not simply waiting for them... They were treating the patient and stabilizing them for the flight. That 15 minutes in the back of an ambulance, when you're working hard on a patient, seemingly goes by in seconds.
You could use the same argument a different way... If they told the helicopter to meet them at the hospital and the ambulance broke down, then where does that put you? Would they take off again and land where it broke down? Would you send another ambulance?Wouldn't that be a delay too?
Another issue is the number of patients. The ER's were going to get flooded with the injured patients from this accident... Does it make sense to take all of them to the ER and overwhelm the staff? And finally, When a patient is transported to the ER and flown from there, they have to stop in the ER for evaluation before flight... This delays the critical treatment that the patient needs in a level 1 trauma center.
Since you know "law" then you are aware that, by law, a critical patient must be taken to a level 1 trauma center. So, If EMH did receive the patient, they would have to be flown anyway. The helicopter has a doc and nurse on board of a "portable ER." There is no delay in care at all.
LaGrange Fire and EMS did absolutely nothing wrong... In fact, the did what they did in the best interest of all patients involved.
If you want to criticize them, try filling their shoes and sit in the back of an ambulance before you point fingers.
Great job LaGrange, and you too, Terry.
Tim
Sometimes it is best to wait for the helicopter. On the helicopter you get a doctor and a flight nurse that have been on numerous calls like this. The patient can then be flown straight to a trauma hospital which they would probably end up doing anyway when they got to the hospital. Sometimes it is best to do what you can to stabilize and just wait for the chopper.
do we question why you get paid so much for no reason ? you should just stick to what you u know legal stuff and let us do our job.and when we call for a helicopter we are saying that no hospital around here is going to keep that patient. seeing EMH is a level3 trauma center and METRO in a level 1 now where would u like your family member to go. u must not know anything about life flight because they have a flight nurse and a flight doctor on board, we have done amputations in the field and the list goes on . u must not have any mechanical background either because the squad could breakdown en route to the hosp . so what you need to do is turn off your scanner and and keep your nose in the books and let the real men and women do our job .
My thoughts and prayers are with the 16 year old and the 8 year old who were flown out and with their families and the other people who were involved in this accident.
Why don't we stop being so rude to someone who is simply making an observation, or a comment, or question. Just some one has chosen the legal profession, with their head in a book, and listen to a scanner; does not make them any less of a man or woman. Let's be civil and not make TMC another loraincounty.com; which by the way is still shut down.
I would like to thank the bystanders that helped keep the kids warm while we treated those who needed treatment. The phrase "pay it forward" comes to mind. Hopefully there will be someone there in your time of need. Terry, thanks for the ride. Great pictures. James Rader
PS. Signing your name will get you alot more respect when you ask a question!
Heard that the driver who hit the mini-van failed to stop at a stop sign and the result was this crash.
Now ask yourself, what was so darned important that you couldn't take 30 seconds to stop, look both ways, then proceed through the inetrsection? You obviously didn't get to where you were going (unless you wanted to go to the hospital), you missed out on whatever you were going to and you put 7 other peoples lives in danger.
Was it really worth it to "blow through" the stop sign? I doubt it.
So, please people, take that extra time to stop and avoid an accident. You can even try leaving a few minutes early so you don't need to cause an accident.
Best wishes for a speedy recovery for all and hopefully a non-fatal lesson-well-learned for the driver that ran the stop sign.
Just to kick in my two cents... To the expert medical personnel bashing the original poster for asking a question. I don't see any mention of the patients needing level 1 trauma care.
At a time when our country is falling apart because of mismanaged financial decisions I have to wonder why the need for so many flights into our area?
Don't try the we know better than you line either, because that is just a smokescreen. Too many times I hear about folks who are flown to the big mighty Level 1 Trauma Center to be treated and released at the hospital. All they get over EMH is a giant bill that they will likely not be able to pay.
Ask yourself why insurance costs are so out of control?
An EMT in southern Lorain County isn't an expert in anything except perhaps animal husbandry. Don't try to pass yourself off as a battle hardened field medic. It's like a security guard flashing their badge and desperately wishing they were ATF.
These are just my humble opinions, but I stand by them.
D.
Mr. Randall makes a good point from a financial standpoint. Does any know what a flight costs? I have heard of instances were someone is flown to Metro level 1 trauma center and released the same or next day. Seems to be a costly expense if you;re injuries are not enough to keep you longer.
Lifecare 94 crew....nice job on wearing your safety vests and/or coats.
Just a question....the federal law went into effect on 11/24/08. When you end up hurt or God forbid killed, how will your family feel when the Workman's Comp. claim is denied because you were not following the federal law or Lifecare policies????
If you fly a patient to a trauma center or anywhere for that matter and they end up getting released so be it. If you don't fly a patient and they did need it you'll get your ass sued ,probably by the scanner junky, for not knowing when to fly someone. EMS doesn't worry about the cost of treatment at the time they are on scene. The comment about being a battle hardened field medic just doenst make sense, these medics here do it for what? It sure isn't the $10.00 an hour. You will never be faulted, or sued, for over treating a patient.Thanks
A Northern lorain county medic
I enjoy the back and forth in these comments, even though some might be mean spirited there seems to be a layer of truth in them. I would agree that flying someone instead of taking them by ambulance should only be done in critical or potentially critical situations. For one, the cost of the flight is through the roof. The other reason is that although Metro has some of the best flight crews around, it is always dangerous to land those helicopters at scenes.
When I see situations like this however, I look at the scene command. In this case the scene command was Chief James Rader and I believe that he would never place the lives of the flight crews, his own people securing the landing zone or the victims in danger.
Unless you were on the scene, unless you saw what they were seeing on the side of the road, you cannot judge the decision based on reading a story online. I do think that the discussion of “are there too many flights in Lorain County lately”, especially out of the emergency rooms, are important. I just think the discussion has to be more generic then Monday morning quarterbacking decisions made on a scene that you were not involved with.
I guess the Elyria crews (94) are exempt from wearing their reflective gear.. and to think you guys have been around long enough to know how to follow the rules.
I do find it odd that there seem to be a lot of flights out of LaGrange, and I've wondered about the cost, too, but how would you feel if it were a memeber of your family? Would you not want the best care, no matter the price?
I think we probably need to focus on something else though, like possibly the need for flashing lights or something on these roads that cross Rt. 303. I grew up in LaGrange and I cannot tell you how many accidents have happened on the roads that cross 303 because people blow the stop signs. Personally, whenever I travel down that stretch of 303, and I see a car coming down one of those roads, I pretty much prepare myself to stop. I have almost been hit myself!
I don't know what we can do to get people to pay attention and stop, but there has to be something. Perhaps if we get flashing lights or bigger signs, it could cut down on the cost of flights to Metro out of LaGrange...
the LifeCare 94 crew are too cool for those vests. i mean who needs to keep safe! If something happend to them they would probably save them selfs and tell you all about it, time and time again.
No disrespect to the EMS/EMT workers, but you are not going to tell me a $10.00 an hour employee is making the decision to call in a, what, $5,000-$10,000 (cost ?) helicopter transport. And would the person who made the statement about the best care for a releative no matter what the cost, be making that statement if they were responsible for the cost of a possibly needless helicopter transport if they had to pay for it afterwords? Why do we have local hospitals if they are not going to attempt to determine if transfer to level 1 location is necessary (if it is not obvious at the scene or when they arrive at ED), in lieu of flying out every accident victim. We would question a police officer giving out couple hundred dollar ticket, but it is wrong to question thousands of dollars for ride and brief stay? We just need to be more objective, and stop taking comments here as a personal attack on one person or profession. If a layman notices an increase in air transports, then I would bet a professional does also.
To say you have a background in law means as much as saying you have a background in haircutting.
I do have a medical background - over 25 years as an RN, with ICU and ER experience. I know for a fact that life and death decisions are made in seconds based on knowledge, experience and reletive facts available at the time. Any trauma victims (as are common in MVA's) that are transported to Allen, EMH or CHP will end up being life flighted to Metro or Toledo.
As to Mr Randall's opinion on the ability of Southern Lorain county EMT's, I would respectfully ask him to attend either fire school or EMT school. Not just for an hour, or a day, but until completion. Battlehardened? I think after they pull the first dead kid out of a car their pretty much set.
Plus, they can perform animal husbandry.
Oh, and yes my husband is a firefighter, and even if he knew how some of you people think he would still risk himself in the middle of the night to save you.
I was actaully driving by this accident on 303 when rescue crews were on scene. As a curious onlooker I was distracted by the fire trucks, police cars, and ambulance lights... I mistaked the firefighters reflective vests for green traffic lights and ALMOST crashed my vehicle into the sea of green. However I was easily able to determine the lifecare 94 crew as rescue workers and not traffic control devices. The Lifecare 94 crew was extremely visible in the DAY TIME. And to the "vest police" out there think of this. Would you rather have a paramedic concerned more about the welfare of a victim of an accident or about putting a vest on... losers
I wonder if people would be as critical or have such bias opinions of the decisions made by the FD if the accident did not involve bitter, ex-Lagrange employees family. Also, to the medical person who felt the need to correct the comment about EMH and their trauma status, you should probably know your facts before you post, EMH has no trauma status, not even Level 3
Just to clear the air with everyone who is criticizing LaGrange Fire and EMS workers about calling Metro, maybe if you had some sort of background in Fire or EMS you would understand that they work according to Protocol.
The current Lorain County EMS Protocol’s state that any patient with suspected serious trauma whom: require an extrication time of longer than 15-20 minutes, have an unsecured airway, unconsciousness or hypotension with tachycardia should be flown to a level 1 trauma center. It also states that scenes with multiple injured patients may require air ambulance.
Unfortunately, there is not X-Ray or CT Machines or Laboratory’s in the back of an ambulance so the EMT’s do no know for sure the seriousness of a patient’s injury. All they know is how the patient presents to them, what the scene looks like and the protocols they are required to follow.
You may have 5,10, even 20 years experience in the field….but you can not look at pictures on a website and know the patients condition and if they required a flight or not. There are times when a patient comes out of a car so damaged you can not even tell what it is and they are just fine, and other times there is barely any damage and the patient is critically injured.
My thoughts and prayers are with all involved in this accident.
Lastly, it was Thanksgiving….do you really have nothing better to do than listen to a scanner and criticize Fire and EMS workers who just may have to help you out one day? Spend the day with family and friends…if you don’t have any of those…volunteer at a soup kitchen or something.
If you mistake a person wearing a neon green vest for a traffic light you should get your license taken away. People like that are the reason these accidents happen. How about you stop being a "curious onlooker" and keep your eyes on the road! And if it take the medic more then 2 seconds to put the vest on then i doubt you would want that person working on your family memeber to begin with. Its not rocket science! I bet you were listening to your scanner and then desided to drive by the scene to make yourself feel importent. Whos the loser now. Get Bent You Wanker.
Time to quit second guessing. We are cabinet makers, mechanics, welders, farmers, fathers and mothers who took the time to attend training schools, classes and ongoing education to serve our community. Some of us have the same training as the "big city" guys, we all do the same job as the big city guys - for a lot less money. Before you say too much, ask yourself what you are willing to sacrifice for nine bucks an hour.
We answer the call up at 2 am, on Thanksgiving and Christmas and whenever, and see and do things most people are terrified of. We are human, but we do a darn fine job, and I am proud to be a member of LaGrange Fire and Rescue
Well...... where to begin.
It has been interesting to sit and watch over the last couple of days all the comments. There is good debate and honest opinions expressed here...and some downright hatred.
First......let's all pray for a speedy recovery of all the patients involved in the accident.
Second........I have personally worked with all the crews that were there on that scene and NOT ONE would do anything to harm anyone. Chief Radar has taken LaGrange to a whole new level.
Third......Any flight service in this area will tell you, if they are not landing or close to landing, they recommend heading to the hospital. It is safer for everyone involved , they know all the helipads in the area and ensures that if there is some sort of delay or abort of a mission, that the patient is in the ER.
Fourth....Any ER in this county can take care of any patient... and then refer out if needed. Whether it be EMH, Amherst, CHP or Allen, all have very qualified staff who can get the job done.
Fifth....Why do we get so defensive when someone asks a question? Is this more of the safety forces ego that cannot critically look at an incident and find ways to get better? Why is it, that there are people in this county who will go out on calls and never come back and admit that things could go better.
Sixth..... The NTSB will have the first public forum on Medevacs in February. This is the start of a federal initiative to ensure the safety of emergency helicopters due to the high incidence of crashes and fatalities. There is a belief in the safety forces arena that within 18 months, whether you call for a helicopter or not will be regulated by federal regulations.
Seventh....mechanism of injury is only part of the criteria for deciding whether to fly a patient or not. I don't know what occurred in this situation, but someone stated critical. Critical and the trauma laws and the EMS Protocols are based on qualitative patient data, i.e. unresponsive, hypotensive, tachycardic, etc. Too often, we in the field look at a scene and use old school thinking and fly someone. The national benchmark is 10%. Only 10% of patients flown should be released the same day. If it is more than that, it is considered overuse.
Eigth....someone made the comment that a helicopter is a flying "ER". WRONG!!! A helicopter is another mode of transport regardless of the crew configuration. There is only so much that can be done in the back of an ambulance or helicopter. As was once stated at an State of Ohio EMS Board meeting, if helicopters are mini-trauma centers, why doesn't the trauma accredidation body survey them?
And last but certainly not least.....if the EMS crew gets hurt, then they have added to the scene and chaos. Get the safety gear on, it has been proven to save lives.
And most importantly..... do not forget that this call occurred on Thanksgiving. How many of these folks left their turkey dinner to help a fellow person, or how many missed that dinner to be ready to help someone? We need to find the balance where we recognize the importance of the work yet continue to improve in what we do, constructively.
TMC News...keep up the great work. Your posting here has clearly stirred a debate that is going on in the county!!! This is healthy for everyone!!!
To all the readers of this blog:
It was fun to put I had a law background. Now the rest of the story. I was a paramedic and ER nurse for 19 years before I went into law. I now work with an attorney who represents healthcare organizations who are being sued. My job is to find ways to ensure the healthcare organizations win the case.
For all of those who read that about the law background and made the negative comments about what I do, thank you for proving my theory right!
LaGrange Fire and EMS, Lifecare EMS and Allen EMS, you all do and did a great job!
TMC News, thanks for posting my original posting and stirring such a debate. Hopefully it has caused some thinking to always ensure the best for the patients!
My sincere compliments to anonymous said @ 10:44 PM; very well put. Do you think the NTSB will address the possible overuse of air transport? I know that the benchmark of %10 you mention in your 7th point is exceeded in this area and needs to be addressed. Take care.
I'm thankful we have a level 1 trauma center close by. But it's true there are a lot of flights from accident scene to there. How much do they cost? What happens if your one of the ones who don't have medical insurance? How do they pay?
Has evryone lost their minds here on this site? Terry does an excellent job providing this site and as I have heard him say, it was started also as a learning site. Now everyone is starting to use it to slam others. Time and time again we have seen some bad stories. Most people now use it as let us criticize the others in the story. I agree freedom of speech is all and good but let us not forget evryone on these scenes and their families. Learn from the mistakes and calls,but stop criticizing. Everyone of us, including you have made mistakes. At least in this article no one was killed, as in others. But even those you rip people apart, like the call wasn't bad enough. Learn from these and put it towards your next call or if your not in the field, apply it to your own lives. Happy and safe holidays to all. Maybe some of you could consider a New Years resolution of not being so negative and control your urges of slander.
As a mom who's child was life flighted out of an accident on 301 & Parsons in June, I can and will whole heartedly agree with the use of life flight for anyone who may be in critical condition!
Had life flight not been used in my daughter's case, I shudder to think what may have happened! Two other girls were also life flighted, one from the scene and one from EMH after being transported there. They were both released within 48 hours but would YOU be willing to be the one who decided their injuries were not serious enough to require life flight?
I applaud the LaGrange & Carlisle fire departments every day, as should everyone!
And for the poster who asked if we knew how much life flight costs? Yes, I do... about $10k from LaGrange to Metro - including the medical care provided in flight.
Julie O'Brien
To Whom It May Concern, I have nothing but praise for the GREAT job that everyone involved in the rescue of my extended family did. From the great Firefighters & EMT's lead by James Rader who responded quickly and made the correct decisions concerning the treatment and disposition of the victims. Also the Great Photography by Terry of TMC news. I'm surprised and a little disappointed at the negative comments made about decisions made by the EMS crew on this run. They were faced with a very difficult situation with having 9 victims ranging in age from 3 to 37 years old.
If a mistake is to be made in EMS it is ALWAYS better to error on the side of safety and remove any possibility of doubt. The two children who were LifeFlighted had suffered severe head impacts with the windows located on their side of the van. Both were knocked unconscious for a period of time suffering concussions. One of them required 12 stitches to close the gash in his face along with neck and back trauma. The other impacted the window with his face cause a concussion, mandible fracture, bloody nose, both front teeth cutting all the way through his lip along with neck and back trauma. My wife and I are trained EMS people ourselves with Intermediate EMS credentials with 18 years of experience and believe with all our hearts that correct decisions were made and these people need our praise and support not our criticism.
Again Great job to all involved and thanks from the bottoms of our hearts.
Grandpa & Grandma Rader
Grandpa and Grandma Radar--- Very nice over dramatization of the injuries. If what you are saying is accurate, they would not have been sent home the same evening.
If you really have been involved in EMS that long, then you would know that there is this thing called triage. Whether it is 9 or 90 patients, they can be sorted and the most criticals taken care of first. According to all of the reports, all were sent home that evening.
By the way, you may want to use caution. You detailed very specific information about this call and the patients involved. If you obtained this information in any other way than the patient who stated you could put that in a posting, you just signed your name to a HIPPA violation......and there are hundreds of lawyers who would take that one up in a second!!!
2 were sent home day of from metro and the other got released on 12/1/08
huh? 2 were flown to Metro and the rest were taken to Oberlin and all were released the same day. Where does the third person come from? I stuggled with math, but I don't understand.
To the ones whom called the other wanker: You are correct the lifecare 94 crew did not have on their vest/coat. The policy was not yet in place. It is Dec.1st. The ones that feel the urge and need to criticize others are the ones whom are usually incompetent.
I’m not incompetent, I’m pretty good at what I do. I’m no you of course. I just like adding my two cents. The fact of the matter is I might not be the best of the best but I can get better, where as you’re a wanker and you can’t fix that.
Wow..... at least the supervisors at Lifecare could have told the 94 crews family "they weren't wearing their coat cause the policy didn't go in effect for another 3 days" even though they had their coats and vests.
Critical thinking skills.......you can't buy them at Walmart!!!!
You can buy everything at Wal-Mart! I could have swore I saw the smiley face rolling back prices on Critical thinking skills the other day.
I don't work at lifecare but there is a green vest I have been issued. I've talked it over with my family and they fully support me in not wearing the vest. So let's leave the "family" line out of the vest argument
Unfortunately, You can't buy a medic card at walmart....xoxo
I guess I can voice my two cents on all this as on observation, like others. People have pointed out and ridiculed the 94 crew about vests. I know people who work around this type of field and read these stories as you. However I think the 94 crew realizes that NO they did not have on reflective clothing by now. So does it need to be brought up over again when no one has mentioned that they were not the only ones? Did you not notice State law enforcement? Guess not. Other crew members on this call did not have theirs on either. Just not the 94 crew!!!!! Get real people it is easy to read through small print. Is it your small minds at work. I have also observed many stories and pictures of people not seeing or paying attention to big red firetrucks with lights on, cop cars, ems vehicles, and tow trucks. Maybe vests are becoming law but honestly is a vest gonna save a life if a fire truck or other vehicles can not. They can run through a vest as well as a big hunk of steel. I hope the vests do add more protection for visibility but people are still going to be STUPID and go through scenes as if they are not there. I do not wish to see any of you hurt and wish all the best. But this story is old and the same fact still exists. There will always be scanner followers, ambulance chasers, and last the ones who has to get through any scene at any cost. Wether it be they are in a hurry, want to get closer look or under influence and dont care. Vests, trucks or lights, Those people will always be around. GOD BLESS ALL AND THANKYOU FOR ALL YOU DO!!!!!!!
Wait a second....if someone is hurt or killed, we cry about how bad it is for their family, how departments should do more to take care of their folks, etc.
Yet, now folks are trying to be safe and thinking about families and we say "leave the family line" out of it?
This is EXACTLY the hypocritical statements that keep going on that reduce the publics perception of the folks in fire, ems and police.
You can't be the hero only when you want to be and it is convienent.
thanks for all your comments i am one of the kid that got liflighted out my names is brandon some peale think metro is being over used it is not if you got in a car crash and they say you need lifeflighted out you will change your mind thanks LaGrange for all your help
p.s thanks chief james rader
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